Intonation issues - Modifications?

[cctubaneeds]

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I have been playing my new to me YCB 861 for about a year now and think I need a couple changes.

I think venting the 1st and possibly 2nd is necessary. Well, maybe just the 1.

The intonation problems I have been having seem to be numerous and are a follows.

The 3rd and 4th and 5th valve seem to be very long. I can't get D or G (low of course) in tune with 4th, even all the way in. The 1+3 combo works but 3rd is also all the way in. As well, with 5th all the way in I can get low F with a 4+5 combo pretty good. The 5th valve seems to be really long, this horn is only three years old and the Yamaha website says it is a flat 1st but it seems like it is just another 3rd valve. The 5th valve I can live with. Another problem I have had with the 3rd valve is the 2+3 combo, it is really flat. Eb below the bass clef is flat as well as Ab in the staff. I have 3rd all the way in and 2 set in tune by itself.

Maybe I need to be doing a lot more adjustment with my lips, but I like may sound more in the center of the horn than pulled up all the time, with valves depressed atleast.

I have had other players in the area play it and they agree that these three valves are long, so its not just me. One of them thinks I just don't have the horn set up right but I don't know how else to set it up. The only valve I am really happy with is 1st. It stays a bit out except with the low register and in the staff D. Of course like usual D is a little low but that is easy to do a quick push.

For now I leave 3,4 and 5 all the way in and push in 2nd for the 2+3 combo.

Am I crazy, did I get a bad horn, or should I get almost everything shortened?

[iiipopes]

Can you return the instrument and get your money back?

[cctubaneeds]

No I own it now. It started out really good. I trusted my teacher to let me know if there were any of these major problems. I didn't notice these right away.

I guess I'm just frustrated.

Do you think maybe a smaller mouthpiece will help sharpen everything?

[iiipopes]

Well, then. Time to start saving a little bit of cash and find a good tech. No, a different mouthpiece will not help. You wouldn't want it to, anyway, then the notes that play in tune now would also be sharp. It is good that at least one valve, 1st, is as it should be so a tech will have a reference.

Hold off the valve venting for last, if indeed you even need it after you've had the valve slides shortened to pitch.

Good luck.

[NCoumos]

STOP!! DO NOT CUT THE SLIDES!! Yamaha does not put incorrect slide lengths on their horns. Your problem could be a number of things and most of them cost very little to repair. You have a good horn that may have issues so let’s list possible solutions:

1. Your mouthpiece could be a problem if it is a poor fit to your embouchure and it is causing you to pinch or somehow not play with correct technique. To see if it is you, have some other tuba player play the horn with a tuner and see if he has a similar tuning issue. First set every slide out 1 inch. Yamaha includes a standard size mouthpiece with their horns, it should play in turn with similar mouthpieces.
2. Check valve alignment by removing the cap to see if the lines line up perfectly. Even a small amount of misalignment can cause tuning problems. If they aren’t perfect, a good tech will put them right or if you are very handy, and can get the materials, it is not rocket science.
3. I have a Yamaha 822 and I measured the 5th valve tubing. With the slides pushed all in, it measures 48 inches set up for a sharp 2 and 3 combination. If I remove the extension, and set it up for flat 1, the tubing would be 13 inches shorter or 35 inches. (6 ½ inch extension) I have never seen an 861, but from pictures I’ve seen, it looks like it may also have a tuning slide extension available. Maybe you have it installed? Measure the slide and see which you have.
4. If none of the above is helpful, then you may have a problem that may be a little tougher to resolve. I had a problem with my 822 with intonation of the higher notes. It drove my tech and I a little nuts until I discovered the problem. It turned out to be a lose mouthpipe brace. He soldered the brace and the problem went away. It is always amazing to me that very small defects can cause big problems. A Mirafone F tuba that I own gave me problems with high Bb since the horn was new. For years I struggled with that note using alternate fingerings until my tech found the problem. When the spit valve hole was drilled. The piece of metal that was part of the hole was push up into the airstream. It was there for 25 years. He removed the metal and the Bb magically plays in tune. My tech tells me that if the horn is of good design then there are no “bad” horns. If your horn doesn’t play in tune a good tech should be able to find the problem. If his solution is to cut the tubing, find a new tech.

[NCoumos]

In rereading your post I see that you have had other people play the horn and that the horn seemed OK when you first played it. The advantage of the Yamaha “custom” line of tubas is that the horn is put together by Yamaha's most skilled craftsmen. How a horn is assembled makes a big difference in how each horn plays. One small bit of solder on the inside of the tubing will have little effect, but multiple bits of solder can have a big effect on playing quality. Tension also has an effect so the horn must be carefully assembled so that it fits together perfectly before soldering. (All of this according to my tech)

What could have changed in a year to make the horn worse? Valve alignment seems to be the most obvious, but let’s explore other possibilities. You could have things growing in your leadpipe! When was the last time you ran a snake through the horn? I try to clean the bore of my horns about once a month (My tech suggests once a week) by inverting the horn, removing the tuning slide, and putting a hose in there with water running slowly. I then run a snake in the leadpipe and brush the pipe to the rotors. I am amazed at the stuff that sometimes comes out. If you leave that stuff in there for any length of time it begins to grow. Globs of grease sometimes get pushed it ahead of the tuning slides. These can cause minor obstructions that can add up to intonation problems. The closer the obstruction is to the mouthpiece, the more the effect on playing quality. Ill fitting mouthpiece receivers can cause major problems as can an improper fit of the mouthpiece and receiver. Any foreign bits if allowed to remain in the horn begin to harden and become difficult to remove. If the previous owner was not careful about eating and then playing the horn, there could have hardened Twinkies or chicken wing bits in there. These are impossible to remove by ordinary brushing with a snake.

If you have some money to spend, take the horn to a good tech with a good reputation on working with tubas. Have the horn “chemically cleaned” and have the rotors aligned. They have special tools to remove those stuck on bits of food and crud. This should cost a few hundred dollars. (it is a big job) If you wish to have the valves vented, this would be the time to do it. While the horn is apart it is a simple task to drill the holes. It should only add a few dollars to the cost.

Yamaha horns do have their critics, but they did put a lot of research into the design. One criticism I have never heard is intonation. The 800 series tubas are known to have especially good intonation. Good luck and let us know what you find.

[cctubaneeds]

Thanks for the input.

I checked the valve alignment and they were all good.

I know I may sound like a rookie but I knew where the third was... It is real hidden so I understand the questioning.

I found one solder joint that let go. It was on the fourth valve which connects to the third. Anyway, it didn't help at all but I got it fixed.

Finnally I just finished giving it a bath. I'm going to give it a go in the morning. Hopefully it helps. If not I guess I go try a bunch of mouthpieces. Or get it cut.

[cctubaneeds]

So I played it good and long after its bath.
Nothing, everything seems to be the same. Well its cleaner and it makes me think it is more free blowing but I know that is a lie.

I will try the original Yamaha piece that is supposed to come with it.

I really don't wanna cut it.

[iiipopes]

I agree with NCuomos about trying everything possible before cutting it, including an interior scope to make sure everything is as clean and neat on the inside as outside: no gunk, no solder blobs, no burrs from water keys, all joints securely soldered, etc.

But I disagree with NCuomos about overall Yamaha quality. It is good, but no better than any other company. It's still a factory meeting quota on the line, and mistakes in the lengths of tubing can be made, especially if similar models are being made at the same time.

There is a very famous high-quality Japanese guitar factory that makes high-end guitars for just about everybody. My Epiphone Alley Kat is one of them. It was supposed to have a 1.69 nut width rosewood fingerboard. Instead, with a factory error, it has a 1.72 nut width and an ebony fingerboard. Now, I actually prefer the wider nut and ebony over rosewood, but it's the same kind of error: one or perhaps just a few guitars out of the thousands they make.

I cannot automatically preclude such an error on this tuba.

But before you go on a mouthpiece safari, do try the original mouthpiece, find a good tech that understands trying everything else before reactively cutting slides, and also talk to your teacher, express your concerns, and see if your teacher can arrange an audition of your tuba with one or more other professionals, either teaching or performing professionals, to see if they come to the same conclusions about its intonation after you've made sure to make sure all the other mechanical issues are eliminated.

Then, if you have to cut it, you do.

Famous cutting incident: in the late 70's, Besson redesigned the bell from 17 inches to 19 inches on their famous Sovereign tubas. But nobody thought to really play-test the horns, not thinking that such a small change would matter. It did. They were all flat. The entire first run of these tubas had to have about two inches cut from the interior bows of the bugle on the way to the bell to bring it back into tune. It became known in the UK as simply, "The Cut." On the next run, Besson reengineered the rest of the horn so this was no longer necessary.

I've had horns cut. I paid to have a Conn 2J refurbished so it could be used for quintet work at my undergraduate university. Like almost all tubas, the 5th partials were a little flat. So as part of the refurb, I had the tech cut @ 3/4 inch off each leg of the 1st valve outer tubes, and trim the inner tubes to match, so on bass clef midline D (concert pitch notation) I could shove 1 to get it into tune without having to use 1+3 or 4 as an alternate fingering.

Your tuba is already set up like that, with 1 normally pulled as you have described, so you can push it when necessary. But the other slides may need attention.

A technician who owns a repair shop who posts on TubeNet has gone on at length on a thread about a particular model of Olds tuba and its related kin which all have over-length problems, and how after months of study of the problem figured out how to fix them, and it does include a cut on one or more of the valve circuits due to the faulty original design. And this guy has a national reputation, will try all other appropriate remedies first, before cutting. But if that's what is called for, he will do as necessary to make the tuba play in tune.

So it does happen. Rarely. We all hope it's something else. But if it does require a cut, find a tech who will cut conservatively.

The best way to estimate how much to cut is to see how many cents flat it is when the slide is all the way in. Then see how much pull it takes to make the note that many more cents flat. Then cut a shade less than that amount, knowing you can go back and trim a little more if necessary. That way the risk of hacking too much is minimized.

Good luck!

[NCoumos]

Two years after I purchased my brand new Mirafone 186 I began playing with a very good brass quintet. These guys were all top notch musicians and we played lots of jobs including college clinics on brass playing. The Mirafone was a good horn for this but a local music store got a shipment of two Conn 2J’s and the owner of the store said if I wanted one he would sell it to me for $900. (This was in the early 70’s) I tried the horn in the store and it played great. Besides, it was a copy of Harvey’s horn so how could I go wrong. It was much more agile than the bigger Mirafone and I thought it would be a perfect quintet horn. As it turned out, I had a quintet rehearsal that night so I left the Mirafone at the store and took the Conn. Well the rehearsal was a disaster. Buy the end, I had such a headache from trying to play that horn in tune that I apologized and promised to do better next time. The horn went back to the store and I picked up the Mirafone and used it for the next two years with that quintet. A few years later, I was at a clinic with Harvey and asked about the horn. He said that Conn moved the factory to Nogales (I think) and according to Harvey (and my memory) they used tubing they had on hand that was close but not the same as his tuba. He said he was disappointed in the results but said little else. I am interested in Mr. iiipopes experience with the 2J. I loved how easily that horn played. Were you able to fix the intonation issues and did you find it to be a playable horn?

My point is this: Your Yamaha is not “supposed to be” this kind of horn. Yamaha says that much research was done to produce the “Custom” series tubas. They paid lots of money to “Yamaha Artists” to get them horns to try and after that process they build their “custom” series horns. Your tuba is not a mass produced student horn made in the big factory to be distributed to the world. They make comparatively few 800 series tuba. These horns are supposed to compete with the big boys and are priced accordingly. At the end of the manufacturing process a tuba player is supposed to sit down at a strobotuner with your exact horn and thoroughly check the intonation. I suppose that you could have gotten a “Monday morning horn” after the Yamaha tuba player had a hard weekend of Sake drinking but if you say that it played OK at first then something is wrong.

My advise would be to get the horn thorough checked by a good tech experienced in tuba repairs as Mr. iiipopes suggests. Maybe even a second opinion if the first tech finds nothing. If after a check up, adjustment and cleaning you are still not satisfied, think about selling the horn and perhaps buying something else. Cutting the horn is a gamble you may not want to take. I’m sure the tech will tell you he will not guarantee the results as it could through off other partials. Cutting the horn also will be very expensive. Removing and repositioning the various braces will be costly and the results may not be attractive. In the end you will have a modified horn that may not be worth as much if you decide you still don’t like it.

Please let us know what you decide and the results. Your experience could be invaluable to other players in your situation.