Intonation issues - Modifications?

[iiipopes]

The 2J I played was really a nice horn. Being a small-bore 4-valve, it had its low-end limitations. The only notes that really needed anything were the usual 5th partials. The 1st valve circuit had been built to the standard full step of C down to Bb or G down to F. So with midline D 1st valve being naturally a little bit flat, it was either lip up or use 1+3 or 4. So I had the tech shorten the outer tubes 3/4 inch to compensate. Now it plays just fine with 1 pulled as is should be for Bb and F, and shoved for D, as is customary.

[cctubaneeds]

I have done much work.
I have had my instructor play the tuba again. He is the only pro anyway near here so he will have to do.
Here are the results,

1. He agrees the 4 is very long, but 1(pull) 3 is manageable and sounds pretty good.
2. He believes in lipping notes and is very able to do that with the problems I am having.

I still think my 3rd valve is no good, it is long and flat for me. In my low register it is in tune, but middle it is flat.

Mouth pieces made no difference.

I'm still quite frustrated.
I don't think it should be this way. I will really concentrate on my buzz making sure it is efficient with long tubing.

[iiipopes]

We all share your frustration. You are right. It should not be that way. Is there a tech who can go through your horn to make sure there are no obstructions, leaky solder joints, or anything else that might be causing the horn to go flat other than because of the tubing possibly being overlength?

Let's assess where you are. From what I understand of your posts, 1 is fine and 2 is fine, 3 seems long and 4 seems long.

Try this: Take all of your valve slides out and clean the horn thoroughly just to make sure you have accessed everything reasonable, then reassemble the horn with fresh lubricants.

since 1 is fine and 2 is fine, warm up, shove all of the valve slides in and tune your open low C & bottom line G.

You've already said that D 1(pull)+3 seems to work. Try Ab below the staff, Eb below the staff and 1st space Ab 2+3 with both of those slides pushed all the way in. With both 2 & 3 pushed all the way in, these three notes should be marginally sharp.

Likewise, try low F, 2nd ledger line C that is usually played open, and bottom of the staff F with 1+4 instead of 4+5(thumb) with 1 and 4 pushed all the way in. These three notes should be noticeably sharp.

There is one other thing to try: sometimes, to save expense of manufacture, certain valve slides will use the same bow with different length inner tubes. For example, on my old Besson, the bow for #1 and #3 are the same bow, just with different length inner slides. make sure your horn has the right slides in the right position, and that they are oriented properly, again I have a Besson trumpet that has unequal main tuning slide lengths, and my Besson tuba, even though it has equal length main tuning legs, are of different internal diameters, so make sure all the slides are in the correct position and oriented properly.

If after trying all these steps the horn still plays flat, and you're sure, either from your own cleaning, your professor's examination of your horn, or of a tech, then unfortunately it may be time to have it considered for a little bit of slide shortening.

[cctubaneeds]

Thanks for all the input.

The horn has been completely cleaned and I have had it inspected. I have also pressure tested myself and there are no leaks. By pressure tested I mean depressed each valve individually while I blow into the horn and block of the opening of the main tuning slide.

I check the possibility of the slides being mixed up, and 1 and 3 are the same diameters but the way 3 is crammed in there I can only fit one of the two slides in. I tryed turning the one that is in there around just to see if it made a difference. It seemed to sharpen 3 just marginally, so little that it could have just been my imagination.

I also tryed to tuning exersies you told me too, that is actually what I have been doing all along to test it.
The 2+3 combo pushed all the way in is perfectly in tune, if anything flat not sharp.
1+4 is marginally sharp.

So with 1 and 2 in the correct distance out and 3 and 4 all the way in I can kind of manage the horn.

Its almost become a joke for me now. For now because I am too scared to cut the horn and don't really have the money anyway I will live with the problems.

If anything maybe I'll get a 2nd valve trigger put on so that I can tune 2+3 and 1+2, which are flat and sharp respectivly.

Every horn has its problems and every player theirs. I guess I just have to work hard. One thing I have learned from this process is that suprizingly I like the sound of this horn compared to others. While why instructor was trying mine I got to play his 70's 186. I know there are a bunch of Miraphone lovers out there but I like mine to play and sound better. The yammy is free blowing and very dark. I know somebody who likes Yamaha sound, don't judge me... This horn is actually quite big too. But boy was the 186 in tune! and it did have alot more clarity and character. The other horns I used are his YCB 621, what a little pee shooter, and a very old Fone 180 four valve F that my school(university) owns.

[iiipopes]

There is one other item, but you will need a tech with a scope, to make sure all the rotors align properly. Out of alignment rotors can cause all sorts of tuning problems, and not necessarily just with the notes affected directly with the out of align rotor.

Play a good open G or C, and very carefully push down on each paddle in turn only about the thickness of the paddle, and see if it affects pitch or the way the "blow" feels. Likewise, in turn, play a note in the same middle register with each valve down, and slightly let up on the paddle the slightest bit as you play to see if that also makes a positive difference. If anything seems to open up and change pitch as you play, then you might need a tech to align your rotors. If it seems to get stuffy or harder to blow, then your rotors are in pretty good alignment already.

How old is the horn, and what is the condition of each of the rotor stops? If it has been awhile, and the rotor stops look worn or feel hard instead of "bouncy," then it might need new rotor stops as well. All these items can cause alignment issues that can also be a cause of your pitch circumstances. Don't always rely on the alignment marks the factory puts on the bottom rotor spindle plate, until a tech has "scoped" the valve and confirmed the marks align properly.

[NCoumos]

Yes, absolutely get your valves and bore scoped to make sure there is nothing wrong. That is the best money you can spend at this time. The rotor marks are usually a good guide, but they are very close to the center of the valve, and if they are off just slightly, it could mean a huge difference at the edge of the valve. Those marks are put on by hand with a hammer and punch so the likelihood of an incorrect marking is much greater than an incorrect length of tubing being installed. Get a repair tech to look inside of that horn. It is the only way to be sure. If you haven’t had a tech install new rotor stops within the past year, get that done.

I am confused about a few things. When you said

“I check the possibility of the slides being mixed up, and 1 and 3 are the same diameters but the way 3 is crammed in there I can only fit one of the two slides in. I tried turning the one that is in there around just to see if it made a difference. It seemed to sharpen 3 just marginally, so little that it could have just been my imagination.”

1. Are you using a tuner? If so, it either sharpened the note or it didn’t. Now let’s talk about “tendency tones”. No tuba plays in tune. Only tuba players play in tune. Even my incredibly in tune Mirafone has a tendency to play some notes sharp and others flat. I know what the tendency is for each note and adjust accordingly. Usually I adjust with my embouchure, sometimes with the first valve slide, and sometimes with alternate fingerings. In the orchestra that I play with, whenever I’m playing with the trombone section, my “A” below the staff is usually sharp, sometimes the bottom space A is sharp, and on occasion the “E” is sharp. I can lip the note down, or pull a slide, but sometimes I use the 3rd valve (instead of 1+2) and lip up. Every note I play has a tendency to play sharp or flat. Sometimes I have to consciously think about it, but usually it is second nature from thirty five years of living with this horn. When I switch horns, everything changes. To find the “tendency tones” get a friend and a tuner and play the tones. Ask the friend the tendency of each note and start small. Check only a few notes at a time and work to improve the intonation of each note. The reason for the friend is so that you don’t adjust each note to the tuner, but find the true tendency of the horn. I did this in graduate school and used a girlfriend who played the violin and a “Peterson tuner.” Today, you can download the “Peterson” equivalent on your iphone. Violin players are everywhere and most of them think their ears are so good they can hear the grass grow. (I really think my ex girlfriend could) It will take many hours to do it correctly.
2. “A second valve trigger”? The second valve slide is usually difficult to reach, and a trigger assembly to move it could be very expensive. Why not use the first and third valve slides? They were put there so you could easily reach them with your left hand. Before I would put a trigger on the second valve slide, I would put a trigger on the main tuning slide like the sixties era Martin tubas. Then tune all of the notes from one location.
3. What note do you play 1+4? I would use 1+2+4 for the low “F” if my tuba had only 4 valves, (and lip up) but on a five valve horn, the 5th valve can be used to find closer combinations, but 1+4 should not work even if you pull the first valve slide all the way.

[cctubaneeds]

Answers,

1. Yes I am using a tuner. I have had a friend watch while I play, as well I concentrate on centering the tone when using a tuner by myself. I know looking at it you will always play in tune by lipping.
2. The third valve is absolutely hidden, it is covered by a lot of tubing. I find that the third is too flat to use to compensate, I leave it all the way in. I use the first for some notes, but can't of course on a 2+3 combo...
3. The fourth valve is extremely flat. With 1 a reasonable amount out and 4 all the way in low F is in tune. But I do use 4 and 5 instead.

I have come to terms with the notes I have to work to play in tune.

1. When I have time(long notes) I push in 2 for 2+3 combos.
2. I use 1+3 instead of 4.
3. Pull 1 on 1+2 combos

And some other funky things...
When I get the money and can get the horn to a good tech I will:
get the rotor alignment checked, my tech doesn't have anything to look in the slide to see if the lines on the bottom of the rotors are correct. If the rotors are good
1. get 3 and 4 shortened.
2. put a lever on 3 so I can actually reach it.
3. get 1+5 vented
but the jury is still out if I want a lever for 2, hopefully with the mods to 3 I won't need it.


Thanks for all the help,

Ray

[iiipopes]

Pulling 1 slightly for 1+2 is normal.

I can understand 3 being long. Before 4-valves became the norm, 3 was routinely made long so 2+3 was in tune and 1+3 only needed slight lipping. My dad's King Super 20 trumpet, and the 1930 38K sousaphone I play are made like that. But with a 4-valve horn, the 3rd valve should be where it can push all the way in for a substitute for 1+2 and not be flat for any required technical or alternate fingering passage, and be able to pull long enough so 1+3 is in tune with 1 all the way in.

Likewise, the original purpose of 4 was to replace 1+3 (except on the Holton Harvey Phillips tubas, but that's a whole 'nutha kettle of fish), so it needs to be able to shove in to have 4 alone be in tune, and that's why the 5th valve was eventually added, because the pull on 1 should be at the limit of 1 for 1+4 to be in tune. Most older fingering charts for 4-valve, not 5-valve tubas actually have instead of 5+4 using 1(shove)24 for low F on a 4-valve CC tuba.

I would hold off on venting until you see what the rotor inspection and, if necessary, the modifications to 3 & 4 do, as you should not need slide pulling to the same extent after the mods, and the only reason for the vent is to avoid the "pop" that occurs when moving slides in anticipation of an entrance once you start playing. Also, with the mods done, you may not need any lever on 2, either, as it usually resides pulled out a millimeter or two very happily on most tubas, and the only reason to have it is if you play a lot of C#/Db's and F#/Gb's and the 4th valve slide is not readily accessible.

[buckeyebandie]

This may be painfully obvious, or just plain dumb, but I noticed no one asked about the open notes. Do you have to fight them at all? Maybe an easier solution (and cheaper) is to just push your main slide in a little more, and pull 1 and 2 out... Just a thought.

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